The Hard Way

[nuno75]

There's this spot in that song at about 2:25 where it switches to a different riff and everything but the one guitar cuts out.

During that section, I totally lose the beat in my head. Like, if I were to tap the beat that I hear in my head along with the riff, I'd find that I was starting it from totally the wrong spot and when the drums jump back in, I'd be off by half a beat or something. I don't know if it's because the first time I heard it, maybe I had to pause it at a weird spot and have thus hammered it into my own head wrong, or if it's not just an expecially tricky spot in the song.

To see what I mean... as the song leads up to that part, start tapping your foot along with the rhythm of the song. When the part comes in and the drums stop, keep tapping your foot as if they were still there. Then, see if you're still on the rhythm when the rest of instruments pick up the riff and jump in.

I get the same thing with the intro to TV Tan. I defy any single one of you to try to crash in at exactly the right moment after the initial lead guitar intro to TV Tan.

[seventieslord]

Good catch. I definitely see what you mean in The Hard Way, not so much in T.V. Tan though. I think it's just meant to be a time change... I think that's what you musicians call it. I love 'em. Keeps you guessing, makes the song "deeper" and harder to get the first few times you listen. Much more rewarding.

[markE]

personally i crash in on the wrong moment on almost all wildhearts songs - but thats coz i got no rythm and get excited easily ( when it comes to music only, i must add!)

[Ean]

When the part comes in and the drums stop, keep tapping your foot as if they were still there. Then, see if you're still on the rhythm when the rest of instruments pick up the riff and jump in.

I'd be very surprised if you were, the tempo increases quite noticeably at the point of the first hit of the little snare fill (the whole riff lasts for 2 counts of 4). It starts out at around 145-150BPM and then ups to around 180-185BPM for the middle bit (at 2:20) then back down to 145-150BPM for the ending (at 4:03).

There's a little program you can download if you want to check it out. You just play the track in the background and use the '+' key to tap the tempo. You'll have to average it out a few times though, 'cos I don't think Ritch uses a click.

I get the same thing with the intro to TV Tan. I defy any single one of you to try to crash in at exactly the right moment after the initial lead guitar intro to TV Tan.

Really?? TV Tan is pretty strictly 8, 4 beat bars (8 times through the riff)...

Code: Select all

   1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
e[---7-----9-----4-]
B[-7---7-7---7-5---]
G[-----------------]
D[-----------------]
A[-----------------]
E[-----------------]

...then the drums come in on the first beat of the 9th bar.

I think it's just meant to be a time change... I think that's what you musicians call it.

<muso mode>

Close, it's a tempo change. A time change is when it goes from, say, 4/4 (four beats in a bar) to 3/4 (three beats in a bar) or 6/8 or 5/4 etc.

</muso mode>

[Ean]

personally i crash in on the wrong moment on almost all wildhearts songs - but thats coz i got no rythm and get excited easily ( when it comes to music only, i must add!)

As long as you're not among that strange breed who still haven't figured out that ...Headfuck has three solos, and you don't start shouting 'Headfuck' 'til halfway through the last one!

[nuno75]

When the part comes in and the drums stop, keep tapping your foot as if they were still there. Then, see if you're still on the rhythm when the rest of instruments pick up the riff and jump in.

I'd be very surprised if you were, the tempo increases quite noticeably at the point of the first hit of the little snare fill (the whole riff lasts for 2 counts of 4). It starts out at around 145-150BPM and then ups to around 180-185BPM for the middle bit (at 2:20) then back down to 145-150BPM for the ending (at 4:03).

There's a little program you can download if you want to check it out. You just play the track in the background and use the '+' key to tap the tempo. You'll have to average it out a few times though, 'cos I don't think Ritch uses a click.

I get the same thing with the intro to TV Tan. I defy any single one of you to try to crash in at exactly the right moment after the initial lead guitar intro to TV Tan.

Really?? TV Tan is pretty strictly 8, 4 beat bars (8 times through the riff)...

Code: Select all

   1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
e[---7-----9-----4-]
B[-7---7-7---7-5---]
G[-----------------]
D[-----------------]
A[-----------------]
E[-----------------]

...then the drums come in on the first beat of the 9th bar.

I think it's just meant to be a time change... I think that's what you musicians call it.

<muso mode>

Close, it's a tempo change. A time change is when it goes from, say, 4/4 (four beats in a bar) to 3/4 (three beats in a bar) or 6/8 or 5/4 etc.

</muso mode>

I guess I worded it badly... I do understand the tempo change is there in The Hard Way. My point is that when the new riff starts out, without the aid of drums my brain keeps wanting to start the riff on the wrong note.

It's the same thing with TV Tan. When I hear the intro, my brain wants to turn the very first note of the riff into kind of a "preceding" note... or a note that is part of the riff but actually comes just before the first beat, when in reality, that note is actually the first note, and it falls exactly on the beat. The result is that the drums I'm hearing in my head for both riffs are actually playing a beat ahead of where they're supposed to be playing.

Give me a bit and I'll see if I can work out examples of what I'm talking about.

[Ean]

I guess I worded it badly... I do understand the tempo change is there in The Hard Way. My point is that when the new riff starts out, without the aid of drums my brain keeps wanting to start the riff on the wrong note.

It's the same thing with TV Tan. When I hear the intro, my brain wants to turn the very first note of the riff into kind of a "preceding" note... or a note that is part of the riff but actually comes just before the first beat, when in reality, that note is actually the first note, and it falls exactly on the beat. The result is that the drums I'm hearing in my head for both riffs are actually playing a beat ahead of where they're supposed to be playing.

Give me a bit and I'll see if I can work out examples of what I'm talking about.

Ah, well if you'd said it that way...

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's the little drum fill that puts you off isn't it?

Do you have any live versions of TV tan in your expansive collection? 'cos Ginger tends to slip a 'lead-in' note in before the riff which makes it sound way better.

[nuno75]

Here is what the riff in the middle of "The Hard Way", sounds like in my head. I added drums to match the rhythm my brain keeps assuming, and I cut off the first B,A,G walkdown to indicate the my brain keeps assuming that it is a lead-in to the riff rather than the actual riff.

The Wrong Way

[Ean]

Here is what the riff in the middle of "The Hard Way", sounds like in my head. I added drums to match the rhythm my brain keeps assuming, and I cut off the first B,A,G walkdown to indicate the my brain keeps assuming that it is a lead-in to the riff rather than the actual riff.

The Wrong Way

I see what you mean. I guess I'm lucky I was concentrating on the drums when this bit went past the first few times.

[chorleydave]

They definately stick in an extra beat somewhere around there - can't explain it via the power of words, but if you hear it in my head I know what I mean!!

There's loads of songs that do stuff luike that too - Sick of Drugs is prob the most obvious WH one (where the intro Guitar misses out the first note of the, er, motif I belive may be the correct muscial term. this basically means that when the drums initially come in they don't seem right until the beat gets re-adjusted in your head). There's a bit also in the second half of drinking in the daytime, which I just can't get my head around.

Antiproduct do it all the time too - check out Psychadelic Girlfriend - the start of that song, always sounded really wierd, until you work out that the riff starts half way through a bar as opposed to at the beginning

[Ean]

They definately stick in an extra beat somewhere around there - can't explain it via the power of words, but if you hear it in my head I know what I mean!!

I'm pretty sure there isn't. It's just an illusion created by the sudden change in tempo and maybe a little 'stretching' of the beat in the guitar riff. I do know what you mean though.

There's loads of songs that do stuff luike that too - Sick of Drugs is prob the most obvious WH one (where the intro Guitar misses out the first note of the, er, motif I belive may be the correct muscial term. this basically means that when the drums initially come in they don't seem right until the beat gets re-adjusted in your head).

The first note (an A) is there, it might be a bit buried behind the trailing last note of Ingloroius, but it's definitely there (it's easier to hear on the single version). The drums come in at the end of a bar though, not the start, so it might be that?

There's a bit also in the second half of drinking in the daytime, which I just can't get my head around.

Around 4:25 ish?

Ok, here's how I think it goes *takes deep breath*

8 bars of 7/8
2 x 1 bar of 6/8 and 1 bar of 7/8
3 x 1 bar of 7/8 and 1 bar of 10/8

Antiproduct do it all the time too - check out Psychadelic Girlfriend - the start of that song, always sounded really wierd, until you work out that the riff starts half way through a bar as opposed to at the beginning

Yeah, you got me there. Took a few listens to sort that one out.